Wednesday, May 09, 2007

A little history....


"The bottles were designed with a integral glass tube, and a stopper. Attached to the glass tube there was a length of Indian rubber tubing, which ended with a bone mouth shield and a rubber teat. This design of bottle was impossible to keep clean and even though openly condemned by much of the medical profession of the time, continued to sell well into the 1920's. Much of this popularity was attributed to the fact that the baby could be left unattended to feed, even before the baby was old enough to hold the bottle. "



I was at work the other day and saw something that made me somewhat disturbed. It was a bottle that had a very long tube attached to it with a nipple at the end. THe child was able to eat while laying down without having to be held. I was taken back to something I had learned while doing research on the history of the bottle. One of the first bottles invented was coined "The Murder Bottle" or "The Death Bottle" because it had a tube that connected to the nipple that carried bacteria and typically caused sickness or death. I know that we obviously have better ways of cleaning and sanitizing now but it seems that people will do anything to not have to hold your child while feeding. I think if its an option then it is just too tempting. THe thing I thought was really astounding in this short article was that even after knowing the high risks mothers still chose to use this bottle into the 1920s because of the ease of being able to feed your child without holding them. What a sacrifice to have some free time! This is one of the things that when I spoke of bonding (in the comments on last post) I was referring to. A mother that nurses has no other option but to hold and cuddle their child while feeding whereas so many times (not all) with bottle feeding we get lazy and want to prop the bottle and have the child eat alone. I cant tell you how sad it makes me when I see a 3 month old feeding herself a bottle. Why are we trying ot make our kids SOOOO independent so early??? These are babies that DEPEND on our love and physical touch in order ot grow into functioning children and adults. I AM NOT saying that moms that bottle feed do not love their children!!!!!!! I think that women who choose never to attempt to breastfeed can still have that bond with their baby but I think it just takes a little more work. Babies are born with the instinct to immediately want to lay against their mother and nurse. THey have just been through a traumatic experience and lots of times they are wheeled off poked and given some unattached plastic nipple. Sounds comforting and cozy to me.
Anyway, as I have said MANY times before I think that formula is a Great invention but I think it is WAY overused. There are women who for one reason or another ( medication, medical conditions or even death) are not able to nurse and formula is something that is great to have in those situations. I just think too many woman use it because of simple convenience or because they just arent as educated and dont know. That is why I am so passionate about women being educated about this stuff and not relying solely on what their Drs say. I could go on but I will spare you all :)

36 comments:

Tammy said...

Okay..yep I get ya about the propping the bottle and using it as a way to get some spare time or just not wanting to hold the baby That, I too, think is sad and can cause emotional developmental issues.

My brother and his wife adopted an infant who was touch deprived....it was horrible...but after given lots of love she is now a beautiful, loving, affectionate, young lady!! Bottle feeding itself, does not create or cause less of a bond than breastfeeding. I really believe the bond that is created is all about the kind, amount, and quality of the attention the baby is given and not whether it is breast of bottle fed.

PS...a little something cute: we have a cat that I bottle fed, he is about 7 or 8 now and still thinks I am is Mom. He begs me to hold him and loves to be held in the burping position....it's so adorable!

Sarafu said...

Yes, I by no means think that breastfeeding alone makes you a good mother. There are great moms out there that bottle feed and not so great moms that breastfeed.
You can totally bond with your baby without nursing but it just seems that since a nursing mother/baby relationship is what God intended then that would be the ultimate experience. JMO. :)

I always wanted to feed a kitten or puppy with a bottle :) Cute!

Elizabeth F. said...

The "Death Bottle" thing is very disturbing to me. I cringe when I see a baby with a propped bottle at all. First of all, it's dangerous! Milk drips out of a bottle nipple and babies cannot stop the flow of milk. They have to continue swallowing even if they are no longer hungry. Or they are sucking and the bottle get positioned incorrectly, therefore they are sucking air. Poor babies!! Secondly, then there is the issue of lack of human touch.

When I think about Breastfeeding, I think about it this way:

-It is no coincidence that GOD put nipples on our bodies where thay are for a reason. They are near our arms, so that we can hold a baby to suckle there.

-They are also located on our torso so that babies can be kept warm by our body heat.

-They are also approx 8-12 inches or so from our faces. That way we can talk, give eye contact, etc... to our babies.

Now, I know I've said this before on here, but I disagree about there not being a difference in bonding based on bottle vs. breastfeeding. I HAVE DONE BOTH!! Several years later, I can tell you honestly that I have had a harder time parenting gently and understanding my child that was bottle fed. We just aren't as close. Of course, I continuously try to work on this relationship, but I do feel there was a difference in our bonding process. Not all moms have this unique perspective. JMO.

Research shows that moms are more attached to their babies when they breastfeed. This is a general statement, not meaning that just because you bottle feed that you do not bond....just there are more cases of not bonding well when you bottle feed. It requires alot more purposeful effort. I assume b/c others can feed the baby. You are not touching baby as much b/c when you Breastfeed, your hands are free to touch and caress your baby, not holding the bottle. And, once baby gets several months old they can hold the bottle themselves instead of still being held to nurse.

There is also a link to reduced child abuse in Breastfeeding mothers vs. bottle feeding mothers. I guess it's harder to neglect or abuse a baby that you have bonded with. Not to mention also that Hormone levels are different when breastfeeding. A hormone called Relaxin is released when nursing that naturally de-stresses you.

I don't think we give physical touch enough credit for all that it is responsible for. Yes, there are orphans in other countries who are deprived of touch, and we see the effects of that...but think about all of the contraptions in our country (high chairs, boppies, swings, exersaucers, activity gyms, cribs, pack-n-plays, etc...) that take the place of holding babies. There are effects of that as well. Add bottle propping or the "Death Bottle" to all of the other contraptions listed above, and we could possibly go almost a whole day without touching our babies...that's really sad.

Sorry about the rant Sara! LOL!

Sarafu said...

Never apologize for ranting, its my specialty so I understand! :)
Great points!

Tammy said...

I am still a bit confused about something with this topic so please be patient with me.
I understand that breastfeeding was intended by God and like I said before, I have no problem with it even if you're doing it out in public. I use to have a problem with it because as I mentioned on a previous blog, it was a taboo thing as I was growing up and even when I had my children. You just didn't see it back then. But, I have re-programmed my mind to be okay with it out in public because there should be nothing wrong with it!!

I am against bottle propping and not holding babies while you feed them.
I understand what Sara said that to her it was the ultimate experience and I understand E's first point about God putting nipples on a woman's body.

Where I get confused at is the next two points about the baby being placed on the torso and only being far enough away so that we can talk to them, have eye contact ect. Well that can all be accomplished while you are feeding with a bottle or even ouside of any type of feeding time.
And I don't understand what about not breastfeeding would cause someone to have a harder time parenting gently and understanding their child....I don't get that.....and please don't be offended, I don't mean that in a rude or mean way. Is there any way you can explain that a little further or is it just a totally personal feeling you have?

See, this is what I am getting at:

I know a lot of people who are bonded tighter than tight with their children and they did not breast feed.

I know a lot of people who could not be any closer to their kids and they never bottle fed or breast fed.

I have a granddaughter who is stuck to me like glue...and I to her. We look in each others eyes I can't even explain the love that flows from soul to soul and I had nothing to do with her feeding process. The bond between her and I is something that only God could have created...then I nurtured but not with a breast or a bottle.

So, I understand and agree that breastfeeding is a beautiful, wonderful thing and that it should be accepted in public because it is the natural thing God created. But I don't agree that it is what creates the best bond between mother and child. If it is a personal thing of the woman's that makes her feel closer to her baby...that I understand.

I hope I have put down my thoughts in a gentle way as to not offend or hurt anyone's feelings. I just wanted to dialogue about this a bit and ask some questions to attemp to obtain a better understanding.

birdietwoshoes said...

Tammy-- I think you said what you had to say in a very gentle and non-rude way. And I'm sure that Sara and/or Liz won't be offended. I will say that I, too, am confused about the parenting trouble with the non-breastfed child. I tend to think that it's more the child's personality that makes him/her a challenge to parent, not whether the child was breastfed or not. I have a friend who has 4 children, all breastfed for a year or longer and one is most definitely a challenge, despite being breastfed. And I attribute that to her strong personality. But that's JMO.

On another subject, it's funny that Sara brought up that "Death Bottle" thing. I was watching TLC the other day and I think it was "Bringing Home Baby." It featured a couple with Triplets or Quads, I can't remember. But they used those bottle things with the line attached. The good thing about it was the woman, God bless her, pumped and so they all got breastmilk. I don't think they did it all the time, though. Used those funky bottle things. I somewhat can understand the need to do that when you have to feed 4 at once. 'Cause wow, I can't even imagine... :)

Sarafu said...

Tammy,
I think this is something that is very hard to explain and something that some would obviously say they dont agree with for a variety of reasons. Neither of us are saying that breastfed babies have better personalities because that is something that we are born with, so a child who is strong willed isnt going to change because of breastfeeding. However, like I said, this is how God created us and so I feel that nursing your baby is the ultimate experience. That, I dont think can be disputed. I DO NOT think that moms taht bottle feed dont or cant have an intense bond with their babies. I beleive it may take a bit more work to build it though. I had a great bond with my own mother and wasnt breastfed because of my moms medication and illness so I can say by experience that Of Course women bond with their children in spite of the bottle. What I beleive E is saying is that there may be a difference in the bond. She noticed it with her own experience so that has to count for something. I also think when you choose to nurse (especially exclusively and extended nursing)then your parenting style tends to be abit different, but that is jmo based on my own observations. Nothing scientific about it. :)

Yah, if I had 4 babies then I dont know what I would do. I give that woman credit for pumping so that her babies could have breastmilk. I get overwhelmed thinking about twins!

Elizabeth F. said...

Well, I am not an expert...but I do my fair-share of reading on this topic. Feel free to disagree, because you have every right. Like I said before, I believe the research that I have read because it makes sense to me and it also proved to be true in MY OWN unique experiences of having both bottle fed one child and breast-fed 2 others. I felt like it did make a difference.

Some bottle-feeding mothers may have the most gloriously, wonderfully, tight, connected bond with their children. That's great! I applaud that. It takes alot of effort to achieve that. I still stand firm in the belief that Breastfeeding makes bonding easier, not that bottle-feeding makes bonding impossible. I think we also need to clarify that "bonding" is not just a feeling driven by emotion. It is a physiological attachment between mother and baby that is greatly influenced by Breastfeeding. It is a "built-in" attachment tool that is part of the mother's and baby's biology. Here are some sources to refer to:

How Breastfeeding Affects Bonding:

"It gives you a Hormonal Head-start. The hormones associated with Breastfeeding, namely prolactin and oxytocin, do more than cause the mother's body to produce and release milk. They also help the mother get connected to her baby."

"Can a bottle-feeding mother experience the same closeness with her baby as a breastfeeding mother does? We believe she can, though it will require more conscious effort, since the bottle-feeding mother doesn't get the biochemical boost that comes from breastfeeding."

"As a psychotherapist, I have noticed that breastfeeding mothers are better able to empathize with their children."

"Sometimes I have to give my baby a bottle. While she bottlefeeds she CAN look anywhere . When she breastfeeds she looks at me."

"Studies comparing mothers who breastfeed with those who don't have shown that breastfeeding mothers have lower levels of stress hormones. Research has also shown that Breastfeeding mothers tend to be more tolerant of life's stresses. In other words, what breastfeeding does for the mother tends to balance the otherwise tiring effects of high-maintenance baby care.This may explain why mothers who are BFeeding and practicing Attachment Parenting often say that their lives are made easier by their parenting choices."

Dr. Sears (The AP Book)

While I cannot answer every question brought before me, I strongly believe that God intended humans to breastfeed because it is the optimal way to nurish and care for babies. Because I believe that so strongly, I don't need books or doctors or research to back that up. I want to reitterate that breast or bottle-feeding within itself does not make you a good/bad mother. So, let's all celebrate the fact that since we are all on here talking about this it is safe to assume...that we are all good mothers and only want what is best for our families. :-)

p.s. I still don't agree with the Death Bottle or bottle propping...but in extreme cases such as having multiples...ya gotta do whatcha gotta do to get by!! LOL!

patty said...

okay, 2 comments here. I have a friend who was told she could never have children. they adopted 2 and love them dearly. then they actually had a miracle baby of their own and she was all set to breastfeed, took the classes, etc...was so excited and was horrified and terribly depressed as her milk did not come in.They didn't know if it had anything to do with a medical condition she has that has created other problems and was the reason she could not get pregnant for so long or what..........so although she wanted to, she physically could not.she even tried nursing over and over to stimulate the milk flow, but she never got milk in at all. The other point is this: about using a bottle to sit baby down to do something else and our boobs aren't long enough to do that. Some of us have that ability. Especially those of us over 40. hee hee haw haw........I think I could feed baby even if she were laying on the floor and I was doing dishes. okay okay,too much info. Just thought I'd lighten it up a little........

Daniel said...

I have nipples. Can you milk me?

As I was reading Tammy's comment, it occorured to me that I had a dream about them (kirk) last night. My cell phone rang, and the caller ID said "Tammy" (which is weird, becasue Tammy is not saved in my phone) I answered it, and it was Kirk. He wanted to know if I could make him (burn him) some copies of "A Christmas Story" and "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" for his grandkids.
I told him I'd do it, even though I knew it would be a pain in the ass to do.
Where do dreams come from? So weird.

Desiree said...

Okay all...be ready for a good laugh but this makes a good point.
A good analogy about the difference between breastfeeding and bottlefeeding is this....sex with or without a condom.
You still have that bond when you have sex with a condom but it is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo different/better without. Did I put enough "o"'s in there? And I totally meant the o's in every possible way.

More seriously though, I think even though it is a funny analogy it really works for this topic. I completely agree that people who bottle feed can have a super strong bond with their child, like Tammy was saying. I just think that there is a level of intimacy that isn't reached. Not everything is created equal. We so live in society where everything has to be "equal" all the time. Everybody has to get the same all of the time. Everybody is trying to get everything everyone else has.
Bottle feeding isn't equal to breastfeeding. That is that.I am not talking about the miracle baby example or the extreme situation examples that are not the norm. I am talking about everyday regular post natal moms who choose to bottlefeed when they are totally capable of breastfeeding. These ladies are not going to have the same bond with their child because they are putting something else before the baby. Convenience is considered one of the "pros" of bottle feeding. That is what is being chosen before what is best for the baby. Once again I reiterate that this not about the exceptions (which are alot more rare than people realize) this is about everyday mom like myself, like Sara, like E, like Birdie. People are going to hate that I said that but it is true.

Elizabeth F. said...

Wow, Desiree!
Be careful with the analogies especially when comparing BFeeding to Sex, cause ya know there are some wierdos out there who will bring up the whole BFeeding is sexual or that we get some kind of sexual gratification out of it. LOL! But, I think we all got your analogy and it was a good one.

And Pat, it's not just an over 40 thing...When I had Zoe I had to hold her up so high to nurse, but now with my 3rd, he can sit sideways on my lap and nurse while watching the kids playing across the room...if I'd let him! Things are alot more flexible these days.

Tammy said...

I appreciate your dialogue...I'm learning. I am going to read a couple of articles that I have come across and then talk to a couple of more women that I know and then, if it's okay, I am going to come back and share what I have learned about this topic.

Most of you don't read my blog, but if you did you would see that lately I have been thinking a lot about my years of parenting.
I am very interested in relationship..and at this point, especially parent/child relationship because it is of course the first, the most important, and in most cases the longest relationships we have.

For some reason, this particular topic kept getting thrown at me so I decided just to look into it and learn more about what others think....and then discover what I think because I have never looked deeply into the topic in order to form an educated opinion.

So before I go today let me ask another question. I am going to address this to Desiree but any one can comment..the more comments the more I learn. Anyway---Desiree that was a interesting analogy you made....I giggled....and as I thought about it, it brought up another question. You mention that sex without a condom is sooooooooooo better! But you have the ability to actually know that or at least form an opinion about it out of your experience with it. Babies on the other hand do not have the ability to know or even form an opinion about whether feeding is better (and I am talking about better emotionally/relationally) from a breast or a bottle. So because of that is it just the mother that feels that there is a level of intimacy not reached? Will missing out on this level of intimacy affect the child/parent relationship on the childs part or just the mothers part. If you ask around I think you might find that no one can remember by which means they were fed....the only way they know how they were fed is if they are told. I can't find anyone who thinks that they got ripped off or cheated out of something relationally or intimately because they were bottle rather than breast fed.

Keep in mind that I don't think bottle feeding is better by any means I just don't think any less of a woman who chooses to bottle feed because that is what she wants to do.

You also say "These ladies are not going to have the same bond with their child because they are putting something else before the baby." So you are saying that since I did not breast feed my chilren, I am not going to have or can not have the same bond with my children that a breasfeeding mom has with hers? And what is it that I (or other bottle feeding moms) put before my/our children.

Sarafu said...

Tammy, Let me address one thing that I beleive Desiree was referring to when she said that mothers "put something before their children when they decide to bottle feed". Alot of women now simply choose not to nurse because of a convienence factor. THere is a saying that goes, "If you feel like you are nursing your newborn all the time then you are doing it right" ALot of moms are not willing to make that a priority and its easier to bottle feed because, in the beginning anway, it seems more convienant and less time consuming. This is what she was saying when she was talking about convienence coming before the child. NOw, that said, 30 years ago women were not educated about nursing and unfortunaltly Drs were idiots and told every mom that their milk was not fatty enough and their baby was going to starve. The actual percentage of women who actually have conditions to cause that is VERY low. Anyway, if a Dr told me that and I was a new mom who didnt know any better than I wouldnt hesitate to do Exactly what he said for the sake of my child. So I understand that alot of times it was women doing what they thought was best. Fortunatly today we are all alot more educated (Drs and moms) and I feel that alot more women know better. Obviously there are situations and circumstances that do not have anyhting to do with moms choosing it as a convienence. I think my main issue is with the moms that simply decide its a hassle or think its weird so they arent going to even try and they make that decision KNOWING that breastmilk is the best option for their child.
As far as the whole issue concerning whether a child knows or remembers how they are fed. I dont think kids are going to grow up bitter towards their parents because of this. None of us are implying that kids are going to be screwed up because they are bottle fed we are just saying that it wasnt the optimum experience for the baby. If a child never grows up with a dad around and never knows the joy of cuddling in her fathers arms it doesnt mean that that child will be screwed up especially if she/he is surrounded by a loving household BUT obviously the ideal enviroment for that child would be a loving mother AND father. So although she may not be scarred for life by the absence of her dad how much better would it be with her dad?
OK, that was alot more than I intended to write. :) Hope all of that makes sense.

Elizabeth F. said...

I feel no ill will towards working mothers that cannot BFeed or pump b/c of their schedules. I agree with what Sara said about 20 some years ago or so Dr's told mothers NOT to nurse beacuse their "milk was not strong enough." My mother was one of those, and she now sees me Bfeeding my kids and feels like she got jipped. I feel for those mothers who simply did not know. Mothers do the best with the info that they have at the time. Years from now, Zoe will probably be teaching me thing or two!! LOL!

Fast forward back to the 2000's...most moms do know BMilk is better. Even Baby Formula says that Breastmilk is best right there on the can! We have great pumps that are available and in some counties even WIC will supply working mothers with pumps. I have friends who have not BFed. I still like them as people. I think they are great mothers. I do not understand their choice regarding not BFeeding, but it's not for me to decide. I do not understand, b/c they do love their kids, do everything else possible to ensure the health and safety of their babies, and they do not work outside of the home. They are with their babies 24/7. Not feeding your baby the best thing possible for them, does not make sense to me if it is possible. As mothers, I think all of us agree that we would die for our children if need be. Right? If we are willing to go to such extreme lengths to save them, why not go 1/10 of that length (sore nipples, being tired, or tied down to baby) to ensure that they get a healthy start in life? Breastmilk is the foundation of a healthy diet and can increase the health of your child for their entire lives.

And, Tammy. Good questions! Most people do not remember how they were fed unless of course they had a bottle or nursed for extended periods. I'll use this analogy to maybe better explain...I don't think it's the actual feeding that babies will remember it's the actual bond or connection that is formed by doing so. Here's the analogy: I have always only had 1 mom. I didn't know any difference when I was a child, but I always felt like something was missing from our relationship. There was a connection/mutual understanding/bond/or something indescribeable that was missing from our relationship. I am still searching for what that was. We are still not close. I think the same CAN happen with Bottlefeeding in regards to forming a bond. We have said on here many times that Bottle-feeding moms can bond with their babies...it just takes more effort. Such as: Making sure you hold baby, use eye contact, skin contact, talking to baby, keeping baby close, not bottle propping, etc...Most good moms do these things anyway!!! But, you'd be surprised how many moms don't. I think that's why Sara brought this topic up. She saw a baby at the mall being fed with the "Death Bottle." I assume the reason the parents would be doing that is so that they could SHOP and not have to stop and feed the baby. That to me is ridiculous and selfish.

Sarafu said...

Well Said Elizabeth! What you said about a mom being willing to die for their child but not going the extra mile to give the the best possible start in life is EXACTLY what I was trying to communicate. Obviously, there are situations that warrant not being able to breastfeed but there are the ones that just flat out choose not to because of things like not wanting to be tied down. THis is where I get confused. Maybe someone who has been there can shed a little light. I always hear, "Ah, formula, it didnt kill me, its fine for my baby" WHAT????? Is that the standard that you hold when choosing what to nourish your child with? Poop probablly wouldnt kill my kids but I am not going to feed it to them.

Oh, and just for the record, THe lady who was using the (death) bottle at the studio actually said "Oh, we give her that so we dont have to hold her while we feed her" :O
I wonder if she realized she said that out loud? LOL!

Jenny W said...

ni am WAY WAY WAY pro breastfeeding, but more for practical reasons i think: it was cheaper, it was easier to put the baby in bed with me than get up to make a bottle, it was more convenient to throw a blanket over me and nurse than to have carry bottles of water and cans of formula in the diaper bag. and i did it both ways, bottle fed skylar and nursed hannah til she self-weaned. i in no way struggle in bonding with my bottle fed child (sky) and in no way feel "more bonded" to my nursed child (hannah). i just know for me, breastfeeding was easier! so maybe for me it was the convenience thing, i just thought formula was LESS convenient!

Elizabeth F. said...

thanks for your comment Jenny...we value your opinion about it! I always forget that you have done both as well.

Dan said...

I also wanted to point out that children as young as two weeks old have been shown to favor certain faces over others (like mommy and daddy better than strangers) and can also favor certain toys over others. So why WOULDN'T they be able to choose whether they like breast or bottle feeding better? I'm sure being at the breast is MUCH more comfortable than being at a bottle... it's warm and squishy rather than cold and plastic. ;)

Mrs. Sara said...

Haha, that was me, not Dan.

Alli said...

Actually, lots of babies initially prefer the bottle b/c its easier for them. Babies have to work much harder to get boob juice right from the source. We are certainly creatures of instant gratification, aren't we? Oh, and Sara (not Carter) where do you work? I would love me some pictures of my hott baby.

Elizabeth F. said...

About what Alli said. None of my kids have shown an immediate preference towards the bottle vs. the breast simply because it was easier to come out. (I'm not saying that's not true for some. Some babies have a harder time latching on than others.)But, I think some babies prefer the bottle vs. the breast because more milk does come out. It takes a few days for Breastmilk to come in. I think most moms get freaked out about that and offer bottles because they're scared the baby is hungry. But, it is amazing that God designed the whole system perfectly...and the baby's tummy is really small when born and the drops of colostrum that they get at the breast are just the right amount.

Mrs. Sara said...

Good to know, Alli.

And good to know, Elizabeth.

Personally, I prefer my drinks straight out of the keg!

;)

Sarafu said...

Right on Sara! I am with you! :)
Ali, I work at Kidide Kandids in the mall. You SOOO need to bring Lucy in! If you go on their website there is a Fabulous coupon for something called a 8x12 Perfect treasure (normally 30$) with the purchase of one sheet. SUPER good coupon and the fathers day oackages ROCK. Anyway. you can find some great coupons on www.kiddiekandids.com and see what kind of stuff you can do. OK, sorry for the plug, but you should come in because I would LOVE to take her pictures!

Desiree said...

Hey Tammy, Sorry for not answering earlier. Happy Mother's Day to all!!!Okay...Since I have had time to mull things over I think that I have a coule of ideas to share with you. You all can agree or whatever if you like.

I am not informed about any official studies about babies knowing intimacy issues in regards to breastfeeding or bottles. I do know that the first three years of a childs life determine the majority of what the child will be like as they grow up. They are the most influential years and that has been proven in studies. I also know that babies are way more in tune with peoples emotions and vibes than we care to admit. I also believe that they are way more spiritual than we are because they do not have the attachments to the physical world like we do. So in saying that, I believe that in some way the child does absorb different levels of intimacy with their parents. As we grow we may not consciously remember but it is a part of our being.
So in that I am saying I do believe that the child knows the difference.
#2. You asked what other moms were"putting before their children", and I would ask this...And I say it in humility,"why did you choose to bottlefeed your children?" That will help me to tell you about that.
What I do believe about the times now and I am not talking about moms from back in the day; I am talking about the "forward thinking" woman who is in tune with her body and the things that go on with her body. I want to know why as we have been educated by other women and by formula companies themselves, why a woman would choose to not provide the best beginning for their child. THAT IS MY BIGGEST PROBLEM. Now, I am so going to get in trouble for this but I kinda judge moms for this. If there is no good and I mean really good reason for them not to nurse why would they not.Honestly, If you can't make the commitment at the beginning why have kids? If people get mad at me that is okay. These are my own views and not neccesarily the views of the bloghost:)But if people I know, are able to pump and work full time and still nurse their kids and juggle it all why, can't others? Like I said before it would take a seriously good reason for me to believe that they are not able to breastfeed and provide the best for their baby?
Here are a few things I have heard that are not good reasons to breastfeed. E and Fu feel free to add to this:
1. I don't want to have my boobs get big and ugly.*Totally Selfish*

2. I don't want to have to get up all the time with my baby in the middle of the night. If I bottlefeed then my husband can feed the baby too.*Once Again TOTALLY Selfish*
3. The dad has to be able to bond with the baby too.*There are millions of other ways for the dad to bond with baby without taking having to destroy a babies health by bottlefeeding.*

4. I work and it would be too hard.
*Wah Wah. If Sara can do it and work a fulltime job and still pump for charity there really is no excuse in that department.*

5. Isn't that a sexual thing?*OMFG, dont even get me started on that.

Okay This post is already too long but I think I am making my point. Women can make excuses but these things are being put in front of the absolute best interests of their child. That just doesn't seem to be a great beginning to a mother child relationship.
I can't imagine a mom thinking to herself,"I know that this thing is right but I am not going to do it because....(Insert excuse here)." I think children or infants pick up on that.
Okay I have to take a breather. If I didn't really explain myself well I am truly sorry. And if my opinions are too strong I am sorry about that too. I know others feel this way...I am just really learning to not be scared about what I think and to not be scared about what others think. I feel like the things I have said have come from things I have learned and my own experiences.

Mrs. Sara said...

Des,

If I remember correctly, I think Tammy once said that she bottle fed because she was on medication... but that might have been someone else, so don't quote me on that.

I can understand women who bottle feed because of not wanting to get up all night... especially if both parents work, it's good to share the responsibility. However, what some women DON'T know is that you can PUMP your milk, put it in a bottle, and Daddy can feed baby at night, too... with the most healthy meal! MAGIC!

Oh, and if breastfeeding is a sexual thing, then the God who created us is a big ol' perv. Cause HE was the one that gave us boobs capable of producing food for babies... WHAT was he THINKING???

;)

Tongue firmly in cheek,
Sara

Tammy said...

First of all, I just want to say thanks for the conversation. It has been interesting and I have learned SO MUCH!!.......not just on the blog here but the conversation sparked a real interest in me and so I have been talking to other women about it. I have thought about so many things since becoming interested in the topic, I can’t possibly write it all here, but I will try to squeeze in as much as I can.

Desiree, I really appreciate your speaking out.....I love to hear what others think and why they think it. I understand your way of thinking and I appreciate your passion concerning what is best for children. As I thought about that “what is best for the child”, things really started swimming around in my brain. There were many things I did a long the way in parenting that were selfish and not the best things for my children. But its not like I did those things on purpose, like I made conscious selfish choices....I was just ignorant. I didn’t think about what was best for them at the time, or even about what was best for me, I just functioned and did the best that I could do within the scope of my situation. The problem with me was (and this is the problem with many mothers) that I had children before I was a stable human being myself...I was still a kid who had never had proper nurturing . My children were not planned and my first 2 marriages were horrible. This, I believe is why I tend to be extremely not judgemental. I can really empathize with choices that women (girls) make, because throughout my life I have made some really bad choices. But it all contributes to who I am today. And I really like who I am today!

I did some asking around and out of the women I asked I found that most of them who do/did breast feed are married to supportive husbands. And most who don’t/didn't are young (like I was) and either single or in bad relationships. Now, the reasons that you (Des) listed that you have heard women give for not breast feeding, I agree are absolutely ridiculous. And I agree, children do absorb different levels of intimacy. However, I stand firm on the belief that someone who has breast fed their children will not be emotionally or spiritually closer or more bonded to their child than I am to my children or that many other women I know who have/are bottle feeding are to their children. And just as you speak from your experience I speak from mine. But like I said before I do appreciate your passion about what you believe is best for children.

I spoke with 2 women who have multiple children. The one woman has 7, breast fed all of them and has told me that she does not think that she is more closely bonded to her children than someone who has bottle fed their children. She also told me that even though she breast fed all of hers there are some children who she has a closer bond to than the others. Another woman I spoke to has 6 children, 4 that were breast fed, 2 that were bottle fed. She said that all of her bonds are different according to the different personalities and characteristics of the children....the one that displays the most intimacy with her is a bottle fed one. So I think we all speak out of our own experiences and form our opinions according to the outcome of our own experiences.

Des, you ask me why I chose to bottle feed my children. You might think this is strange, but guess what I didn’t choose anything. I didn’t even know I had a choice. No one talked to me about it. Not doctors, not family, not anyone. (Of course, no one talked to me about my period before I got it either). My doctors (and I had a different one for each baby) never said a word about it. A nurse always brought me in a pill and said “here this is to dry up your milk”, I took it and that was it. Isn’t this nuts....back then I didn’t even know that babies were breastfed......how sad......maybe I would have wanted to, maybe not, I don’t know....all I know is that I didn’t know about breast feeding. I had never heard anyone talk about it and I had never seen anyone do it. The first time I saw someone breast feeding, I thought it was really weird. Now, I think it is really beautiful, but I don’t have a strong opinion about women who choose not too, except to think that something like not wanting to damage the shape of your boobs is a really stupid reason.

Mrs. Sara....it must have been someone else that you heard about the medicine thing, wasn't me, although I do need some medicine now after feeding children for 23 years....lol!!

and SaraFu...sorry this was so long but I really wanted to share it.

lets see, what topic shall I dive into next? My kids are grown, I have a bit more time now....only a bit though!

Sarafu said...

Dont apologize for long posts, I enjoy them!! It makes me so sad to hear about the fact that Drs were such idiots and never even acted like women had a choice. Most women from that era had those obstacles so I SO understand that. I also understand women who are young and dont know better.There are lots of situations that I have sympathy for. I think my main thing is the moms who really know better and make the decision based on things that Desiree mentioned. I just have a hard time when someone says, "Oh that is just way too time consuming, I need more time to myself". Unfortunatly Sara, though moms can pump and dads can get up in the middle of the night too it doesnt really make sense when your working on a supply and demand basis. We were going to do that with Jack but it didnt make sense when, in order to keep my supply up I would have to get up and pump. We figured there wasnt much point to both of us being up. I worked full time when Jack was a baby and I alwys figure though it sucks being the one up at night it prepares you for motherhood because being a mom is ALL encompassing and alot of times things seem unfair and unbalanced. I just think this God getting us ready for whats ahead.

Mrs. Sara said...

Hmm, and here I thought I had a magic answer to every problem!

;)

Mrs. Sara said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sarafu said...

No, I have the magic answer to every problem! :) LOL! J/K I do have a magic opinion for every problem though! :)

Mrs. Sara said...

Well, at least it works for some women, if not all. I can't imagine being up all night and then going to work the next morning... EVERY DAY!!!

Sarafu said...

Theres alot of things I do now that I never imagined I could do before i had kids but you get through it. :)
Plus it helps that your not exactly up all night by the time you get off maternity leave. I think I was up about twice a night with Jack when I went back full time. It was a sacrifice but it was doable. I cant say I was up all night and then went to work because that would be quite a stretch. :)

Mrs. Sara said...

WOO! Can't wait!

Sarafu said...

Its all worth it! :)

Mrs. Sara said...

I know it will be!!!

I had another baby dream last night. This one was the day we come home from the hospital. I had a little boy with ridiculous amounts of dark, dark hair (just like his daddy's mane).

His name was Nicholas, but we called him Nico, which is weird because that's our dog's nickname (Nicodemus is his full name).

I've got babies on the brain!